HomeMy WebLinkAbout1991 01-09 MINUTES OF THE SOUTHWEST NEIGHBORHOOD ADVISORY GROUP
JANUARY 9, 1991
CITY HALL
CALL TO ORDER
The Southwest Neighborhood Advisory Group met to consider rezoning
Application No. 90028 and was called to order by the Director of
Planning and Inspection Ronald Warren at 7:35 p.m. Those present
included Charles Gellerman, Yvonne Quady and Bill Hawes.
INTRODUCTION
The Director of Planning and Inspection Ronald Warren reviewed a
memo submitted to the Southwest Neighborhood Advisory Group
regarding the rezoning application. He reviewed the location of
the proposed single - family residential project on the Soo Line
property west of France Avenue North and north of the Murphy
Warehouse property. He noted that the proposed zoning is for R1
and Open Space and that it would be a single- family development
with 29 single- family lots and two outlots for open space. He
reviewed a plat drawing of the property and noted that there would
be some setback variances granted as part of the PUD approval if
the application was approved. He also pointed out a proposed 40'
wide private open space zone along the south side of the single -
family lots on the south side of proposed 51st. He explained that
this 40' wide private open space area would serve as a buffer
between the single - family homes and the Murphy Warehouse. He also
explained that the land would be owned by the single- family homes.
He noted that there has been some concern regarding the size of the
homes proposed in the development, but that they are basically
consistent with the size of the homes in the neighborhood.
Mr. Warren stated that one of the most important questions for the
Commission to advise on is whether the current land use designation
of I -2 (Industrial) is appropriate or whether a residential
designation would be better. Mr. Warren noted that other concerns
regarding the layout of the property, the buffer and the size of
the homes were secondary considerations which could also be
considered. Mr. Warren explained that the notices of the meeting
were sent without a time designated for the meeting and that some
residents were concerned as to the validity of the meeting. He
stated that it was an unintentional mistake and that apparently
people found out about the time of the meeting in light of the
attendance shown. Mr. Warren added that there had been dumping of
fill on the property without a permit the previous week and that it
was also apparently without the authorization of the applicant or
the owner of the property. He stated that the City had ordered
that the fill be removed from the site and that that removal was in
progress.
ADVISORY GROUP DISCUSSION
Mr. Charles Gellerman, who served as Chairman of the meeting, then
stated that he had lived in the area since the 1960's and he read
1 -9 -91 1
i
two letters that had been sent to him from people in the
neighborhood. One letter was from Daryl Sharpe, of 5042 France
Avenue North, which complained that the proposed development had
lots that were too small and that quality housing was needed in the
neighborhood. The letter stated that there was concern regarding
resale value of the homes to be built that would be adjacent to the
warehouse. There was also concern that the homes would become
subsidized and occupied by low- income residents. The letter
concluded with concern regarding the fill that was dumped, asking
why it was dumped without an approval and wondering if this is how
the developer and /or the City proceeds without public approval.
Mr. Gellerman also read a letter from Daniel Middlestedt, of 5100
East Twin Lake Boulevard. The letter complained about the notice
that was received, stated that the lots were too narrow, and
recommended that evergreen trees be planted along the south side of
the development to screen it from the warehouse property and also
recommended that the City obtain lots for recreational access.
Mr. Rick Hartmann then stated that he did not know about the dirt
that was placed on the property, that he was out of town when it
took place. He explained that he had told one of his
subcontractors about the project and that the subcontractor assumed
that it would be alright to place fill on the property, but that no
explicit authorization had been given. He stated that the fill was
being removed. He concluded by stating that the project was not
being started without the City's approval. Mr. Warren added that
the City did not intend to cite the contractor for a violation as
long as the City was getting cooperation in removing the dirt from
the site.
Member Bill Hawes asked whether the new property owners would own
the buffer strip between the residential zone and the industrial
use at the Murphy Warehouse. Mr. Warren responded in the
affirmative and noted that there would be a berm and a fence within
that buffer strip. He stated that if the 02 zoning is approved for
that area, a covenant restricting the use of that area to open
space use would have to be filed with the titles to the property.
He added that the City could instead rezone the entire area to R1
down to the Murphy property. He explained that the industrial use
would then become nonconforming similar to the Howe Fertilizer
operation. He stated that the burden would then be on the
industrial use to establish a buffer at some time in the future if
the building had to be rebuilt. Mr. Warren again stated that the
land use question is the most basic question and that the buffer,
lot size and other issues are other questions to be answered if the
rezoning in concept is agreed to. Mr. Warren then gave the
advisory group members the minimum lot sizes, widths and setbacks
for the R1 zoning district. Mr. Hawes asked what the minimum side
setback would be in the development. Mr. Warren answered that it
would be 10 feet (though a 5' setback could be allowed in certain
special circumstances) and 3' for a garage. He noted that no side
yard setback variances were sought. He explained that the variance
1 -9 -91 2
would be on the front yard setback in the northerly lots in order
to preserve as many trees as possible. He added that the squares
on the transparency show the setbacks on each of the lots, not the
building pads, and that the numbers within those setback areas
indicate the floor elevations, not the square foot areas of the
houses.
Mr. Hawes asked whether an industrial development would do away
with the trees that presently exist on the property. Mr. Warren
explained the existing right -of -way dedication for 51st Avenue
North and that it was possible for an industrial use to dedicate
another 30 feet of right -of -way and petition for a street to be put
in. He pointed out that homes fronting on Oak Street would then
back up to 51st Avenue North. Member Charles Gellermann stated
that when the apartments were proposed for this property,
consideration was given to putting in a street in this location,
but that the land was too low. Mr. Hawes concluded that an
industrial use could have a road. Mr. Warren responded in the
affirmative, noting that right -of -way could be dedicated and a
petition could be submitted for roadway improvements. He stated
that, if the proposed rezoning were approved, the City would vacate
the existing right -of -way for 51st Avenue North and that a utility
easement would be retained in that area. He explained that in all
likelihood, the land area within the existing 51st Avenue North
right -of -way would go back to the houses along Oak Street as an
addition to their property. Mr. Gellerman stated that if the
right -of -way land were added to the development, it could add to
the value of the lots and improve the overall development. Mr.
Warren responded that the land would normally revert to the
property to the north since that is the plat from which the land
was dedicated. He added that the City Assessor has indicated that
adding to lot depth does not add much value to a property. Mr.
Gellerman stated that in Brooklyn Park and Maple Grove and some
other communities they are going to 80' wide lots because narrower
lots are not appealing. Mr. Rick Hartmann, the applicant, stated
that wider lots also involve more land for people to take care of.
He stated that there are houses selling on these size lots for
$85,000 to 100,000 and up. He explained that he would build some
custom houses first to use as models and that other houses would be
built as they were sold to buyers. Mr. Gellerman expressed concern
regarding the size of the homes. Mr. Hartmann stated that he
himself lived in a 960 sq. ft. house and that he had four bedrooms
because he has four levels in the house. He stated that he lives
on a 75' wide lot and that it's a lot of land to maintain. He
stated that greater depth to the lot would allow the homes to be
moved back from 51st Avenue North, but that the homes were being
kept forward in order to save the trees.
DISCUSSION WITH THE NEIGHBORHOOD
An unidentified resident stated that the warehouse walls behind the
project would devalue the homes built in that area. Mr. Hartmann
stated that at least the warehouse would not be a surprise to
1 -9 -91 3
people who move in. He stated that people would be able to see
ahead of time what their neighbor would be and would not lose value
because of the warehouse coming in later. Mr. Duke Dalrymple, of
5142 France Avenue North, stated that he thought the houses would
be rented out and that the issue is over land use. He asked why
the City should allow narrower lots. Mr. Warren responded that the
overall land area in the development is quite ample and that a good
portion of the property is dedicated for open space and that this
somewhat offsets the narrower lots. Mr. Dalrymple stated that the
applicant was not giving away anything he could actually use. Mr.
Warren acknowledged this to some extent, but noted that the City is
pursuing acquisition of land around Twin Lake and that, in other
locations, would have to pay for land. He pointed out that Mr.
Hartmann is proposing to buy the land and give part of it to the
City. He explained that the City would have to buy the land if it
dealt directly with the Soo Line. Mr. Dalrymple stated that the
land couldn't be used by Mr. Hartmann anyway. Mr. Warren pointed
out that the City could not use it either without buying it
normally. Regarding lot widths, Mr. Warren explained that some lot
variances have been granted in other locations of the City in
certain circumstances. Mr. Dalrymple asked why a standard lot size
was not being applied for. Mr. Warren responded that the applicant
has a right to ask for smaller lots as part of the Planned Unit
Development application. Mr. Dalrymple stated that the City was
giving away lot size for nothing. He stated that he felt the land
should remain industrial.
Mr. Gellerman inquired as to the plans for planting trees. He
suggested that a row of tall trees might help to screen the
warehouse and thereby help sell houses in the development. Mr.
John Johnson, the project engineer from Merila and Associates, then
showed the members present a cross section of the buffer treatment
to be constructed. He noted that it would include a 6' to 8' high
fence and a mixture of trees. He stated that a solid wall of trees
is an option. He stated that the applicant was trying to meet
concerns regarding a buffer from the industrial use on the
residential property and also trying to preserve trees along the
north side of the property and to dedicate land for open space. He
stated that when all of these things are added together, there are
some compromises that can be made and others that cannot.
Mr. Warren explained that the open space buffer along the south
side of the residential lots would alleviate the industrial use
from having to provide the buffer on its property. Mr. Warren
explained the requirement in the Zoning Ordinance for landscape
buffers where industrial uses abut residential uses. He pointed
out that the existing Murphy Warehouse presently does, and has in
the past, abutted I -2 zoned land and was not required to have a
buffer.
Mr. Ken Nelson, of 5126 East Twin Lake Boulevard, stated that the
area north of the tracks which the applicant proposes to dedicate
1 -9 -91 4
for open space, used to be used for dumping by the Joslyn operation
south of the Soo Line tracks. Mr. Warren noted that soil tests
were being done on the property and added that he was not aware of
any contamination of the soil north of the tracks. Mr. Nelson
again reiterated that the area north of the tracks was used for
dumping by Joslyn and that he reported this to the PCA (Pollution
Control Agency). He related some of the history of the use of the
area by Joslyn and that it used to be burned in the spring when he
was a young child. He noted that he had lived in the area for
approximately 50 years. Mr. John Johnson, representing the
applicant, stated that soil tests done from soil borings of the
area found no evidence of volatile organics. He stated that test
wells had been installed by the PCA and that there was no
contamination in two out of three of those wells. He noted that
one of the wells south of the tracks did show ground water
contamination. He stated that the ground water moves southeasterly
and that the contamination appears to be confined to the area south
of the tracks.
Mr. Nelson and Mr. Warren then discussed some of the past history
of the property. Mr. Warren explained that the City, in the early
1970's, was interested in acquiring some land adjacent to Twin Lake
for open space, but that the condemnation awards were too high and
that the City decided not to buy the land.
Mr. John Johnson showed a map of the area and noted the flood plain
boundary. He stated that the Soo Line property is a 17.5 acre
parcel and that the applicant intends to develop approximately 9
acres while dedicating approximately 8 acres for open space. He
stated that of the 8 acres for open space, 6 acres are in the flood
plain and that five of those acres are wetland. Mr. Johnson stated
that there is a use for the flood plain area, that an industrial
use could use the area for some outdoor storage.
Mr. Daniel Middlestedt, of 5120 East Twin Lake Boulevard, cited
sections of Minnesota Statues 462.257, Subdivision 7 and 462.397 as
requiring notice of any zoning action to be sent at least 10 days
in advance of the meeting. Mr. Warren stated that the City follows
the City ordinance which requires a 7 day notice. Mr. Middlestedt
stated that he felt a statute overruled a city ordinance. Mr.
Warren noted that Brooklyn Center is a charter city.
Mr. Middlestedt noted that the developer wants more homes than
would normally be permitted by ordinance. He asked whether the
developer has purchased the property or not. Mr. Rick Hartmann
answered in the affirmative, stating that he has a contract on the
property. He added that he has a commercial use in mind for the
property if a residential use is denied. Mr. Middlestedt stated
that his position was for some modification of the project. He
encouraged the construction of larger homes, more in the range of
$100,000 to $120,000 price range rather than the $85,000 proposed
by the applicant. He stated that the area of right -of -way being
1 -9 -91 5
vacated should be added to the buffer adjacent to the industrial
use rather than to the lot depth of homes along Oak Street. He
also encouraged the placement of test wells to determine if there
was any ground water contamination north of the tracks.
Mr. Jerry Bisek, of 5101 East Twin Lake Boulevard, concluded that
the other use possible for the property would not be residential.
Mr. Shallcross, the Planner for the City, explained that the
property is zoned industrial and that an industrial use would be a
permitted use of the property. He stated that the City would not
be able to negotiate the specifics of the project as long as it met
basic ordinance requirements. Mr. Howard Meyer, of 5036 France
Avenue North, complained that the residential street proposed by
Mr. Hartmann would open up onto his driveway. He stated that he
did not want to be threatened by the developer and that he would
just as soon see an industrial use of the property rather than
residential. Mr. Duke Dalrymple, of 5142 France Avenue North,
stated that he felt the developer was being arrogant like the
developer of the Bill Kelly House. Mr. Hartmann stated that he was
not trying to be arrogant, but that the property would have to be
developed. He noted that the taxes on the property are $30,000 a
year and that he could not afford to carry this property for any
length of time.
Mr. Gellermann asked those present how many favored the present I -2
zoning, how many would favor an R1 zoning and how many would favor
R1 with modifications. An unidentified gentleman present asked
about the possibility of open space. Mr. Warren explained that the
City could not zone the property open space without compensating
the property for the taking of the developable value of the land.
Another gentleman asked whether another Murphy warehouse could be
put up. Mr. Warren responded in the affirmative. He stated that
the development plan would have to meet setbacks, buffers, etc.,
but that an industrial use of the property was permitted under its
current zoning. An unidentified woman asked about the possibility
of a park. Mr. Warren explained briefly that the City is
interested in developing land around Twin Lake for park purposes
and noted that the developer in this case would be dedicating a
substantial portion of the land to the City for open space.
Mr. Ken Nelson, of 5126 East Twin Lake Boulevard, stated that kids
from the proposed development would go to the park up East Twin
Lake Boulevard. He asked whether it would be necessary to widen
East Twin Lake Boulevard to accommodate this additional traffic.
Mr. Warren answered that there was no plan for widening the right -
of -way at this time. He stated that he would have to consult with
the Director of Public Works to determine if there was any plan for
widening in the future. The Planner noted that there were plans
for trails in the area.
An unidentified woman concluded that the developer would do what he
wants to do with the property and asked whether this was correct.
1 -9 -91 6
Mr. Warren stated that zoning separates certain uses and that
single- family development was not allowed under the current zoning.
He explained that the developer proposes to rezone the property to
a PUD /R1 designation. He further explained that rezoning does not
normally control specific lot sizes and house sizes, but that those
aspects were on the table with the PUD proposal before the City.
He explained a little bit of the PUD process and noted that it was
new to the City staff as well as to the neighbors. He concluded by
explaining that the developer cannot build a single - family
development now, but does have property rights to build an
industrial use if the rezoning fails.
Mrs. Yvonne Quady, of the Southwest Neighborhood Advisory Group,
explained to those present that she had been involved years before
in negotiating compromises regarding the Beach Apartments in her
neighborhood. She stated that the neighbors banded together in
that case and got a fairly good development because they were
willing to compromise. Mr. John Johnson stated that the plan
proposed by the developer is consistent with the park plan being
looked at by the City Public Works Department. He also explained,
that, although the right -of -way through the proposed residential
area would be bigger, the street itself would not be bigger than
those in the area.
An unidentified woman asked what would happen to the wildlife in
the area. Mr. Johnson stated that he felt that it would probably
shift its habitat if it cannot live with the neighbors that move
into the area. He referred people's attention to the park plan for
this area and the desire to install walking trails. There followed
a brief discussion of the trail proposal in this area. Mr. Johnson
stated that the trails are provided in their development plan.
Mr. Roger Reger, of 5024 France Avenue North, stated that he felt
there wouldn't be much opposition if there were fewer and bigger
lots. A woman present asked what the developer's schedule was for
building on the property. Mr. Johnson stated that it was their
desire to build models in the spring so that they would be open for
the Parade of Homes in the fall. He stated that he felt an
industrial use of the property does not make sense for the
neighborhood. There followed a brief discussion regarding the
possibility of tilting the roadway in some fashion to avoid lining
it up directly with the Meyers' driveway on France Avenue North.
Mrs. Ammon, of 5042 Ewing Avenue North, stated that she felt those
present should work with the developer to try to get a good
development. She noted that the City got Brookdale Ten some years
before and that the City should work to get a better development
this time. Mr. Duke Dalrymple argued for fewer and bigger lots.
Mr. Warren stated that he did not believe the City could require
lots larger than the basic City requirement in the R1 zone, namely,
a 75' wide lot. In response to a question from Mrs. Meyer, Mr.
Warren gave the buffer and setback requirements for an industrial
1 -9 -91 7
use on the Soo Line property. Mr. Dalrymple asked whether an
office use would be permitted. Mr. Warren indicated that it would
not be permitted in the I -2 zone. Mr. Gellerman asked whether it
would be possible to rezone the property to commercial. Mr. Warren
responded that he doubted that such a rezoning would be requested.
He stated that he did not see the area as a viable commercial
zoning district because of its location. He added that he did not
think multiple family is acceptable and, if it were zoned for
townhouses, there would be even more units than is being sought by
the developer now. He concluded that the City would be left with
the existing I -2 zoning if the R1 zoning were rejected. Mr.
Dalrymple stated that the neighborhood does not need more small
homes.
Another unidentified woman expressed concern regarding traffic from
the residential development. Mr. Shallcross explained that one of
the staff's concerns in looking at this property over the years has
been the possibility for truck traffic going further up France than
it already does and intruding into the residential neighborhood.
Mrs. Meyer pointed out that such traffic would be during the day
and would not be as objectionable as residential traffic toward her
property at night. Mr. Ken Nelson expressed concern about the
possibility of some traffic moving up East Twin Lake Boulevard to
get to Brooklyn Boulevard and then to Highway 100 if the entrance
ramp at 50th Avenue North were closed. Mr. Warren stated that that
seemed to be a circuitous route. He stated that it was far more
likely that residents that live along East Twin Lake Boulevard will
use 51st Avenue North to get to France Avenue North. Mrs. Meyer
agreed and stated that there would be more lights shining at her
house.
Mr. John Johnson, representing the applicant, stated that the
applicant has told him that he is willing to increase the lot size
to 75' for interior lots and 90' for corner lots, but that he still
wants the setback and buffer compromises as indicated on the plan.
He stated that he doubted that the applicant would be able to get
title to the vacated right -of -way since it would go back to the
property owners abutting Oak Street. He told those present that
lot width was not perceived by the applicant to be an issue, but
that some modification could be made to the plans to accommodate
that concern. He also stated that the road could be shifted so
that it didn't line up directly with the Meyers' driveway, but that
it would either reduce lot depth or the width of the buffer,
depending on which way it was moved. Mr. Warren suggested the
possibility of adding screening on the Meyer property to reduce the
problem of the headlights.
An unidentified man asked whether the applicant would be able to do
what he wants if the property is rezoned. Mr. Warren explained
that the only thing that could be developed on the property under
the PUD designation would be the approved development plans. An
unidentified woman asked, if the property remained industrial,
1 -9 -91 8
would the City still go after land for a park and seek public
input? Mr. Warren stated that there would be informational
meetings, though not public hearings in the formal sense as with
the rezoning. He stated that park development is something that
the Park and Recreation Commission looked into. He added that no
final plan has been decided on at present. Mr. Ken Peterson, of
3850 Oak Street, stated that the lots along Oak Street are 80' wide
or more. He stated the development should either have larger lots
or that the property should be left industrial. Mr. Shallcross
pointed out that, if the property were left industrial, there is at
least a possibility that a street would be put in behind the homes
along Oak Street and that all of the trees which presently buffer
the Murphy warehouse would be removed.
A woman present asked that another meeting be set up to look at a
revised plan. She stated that she did not want truck traffic in
the area. She added that she would prefer larger residential homes
to industrial development. Another gentleman present asked whether
a revised plan was available to look at. Mr. John Johnson stated
that nothing has been worked up yet, but that another plan would be
developed with wider lots. He stated that the applicant needs to
know if the residential zoning is acceptable. Otherwise, there
isn't much sense in pursuing this option.
Mr. Bill Hawes, a member of the Southwest Neighborhood Advisory
Group, stated that he would definitely prefer residential use
rather than industrial.
An unidentified man noted that Mr. Hartmann was in business to make
money and discussed the possibility that, if the residential use
were denied, perhaps no industrial use would be profitable. Mr.
Warren stated that, if the R1 zoning were denied, an industrial use
would probably come about eventually. He stated that if an R1
zoning were later approved, the City could be sued by Mr. Hartmann
for not approving his rezoning.
There followed a brief discussion regarding notices and the need
for another meeting. Mr. Warren explained the background of the
proposal and the process that is normally pursued in reviewing a
rezoning. An unidentified gentleman suggested that perhaps a limit
should be placed on the number of houses rather than on the exact
lot size. Mr. Warren stated that he believed it would be better to
require a minimum lot size and added that he did not feel that the
City could dictate a larger lot size than the standard minimum of
75' in width.
Mr. Dalrymple stated that he felt the problem was the number of
homes and that a traffic analysis should be done to determine what
the impact would be on France Avenue North. Mr. Warren stated that
a traffic analysis certainly would not show an adverse impact on
France Avenue North. He stated that the impact would not be much
different than the impact of Oak Street or other streets which feed
1 -9 -91 9
into France Avenue North today. He stated that the streets are
designed to carry far more traffic than they actually do.
Mrs. Meyer stated that she wanted residential development, but not
with cars coming toward her house. She stated that if the
development were set up according to the plan, she would prefer
keeping the I -2 zoning.
Mr. Gellerman stated that there would be another meeting and asked
what the preference of the advisory group was. Mr. Hawes stated
that he preferred residential development. Mrs. Quady stated that
she preferred residential development with a minimum lot size in
line with the City standards for the R1 zone. Mr. Gellerman stated
that he had not made up his mind yet and would be contacting people
in the neighborhood over the next couple of weeks.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business of the advisory up, the meeting
adjourned at 11:00 p.m.
Chairman
1 -9 -91 10